Ancient Identical Walls: Tiwanaku-Bolivia, Hattusa, Turkey

[Ed Ziomek]

I think by now, we all have read of the architectural wonders of the ancient world.

And we have read of the amazing gem cutting, of intricate detail in turquoise, emeralds, and many other stones.

And we have read of the ancient exquisite figurines, cut or ??? formed in quartz, crystal, limestone, and many forms of granite, ivory, even magnetite.

Ancient Metallurgy expertise offers another realm of wonder, in nickel-iron ores, copper, bronze with addition of tin, gold, silver, and a rainbow of other substances.

But what baffles myself and many others is the apparent isolation of some advanced cultures next to “cave man” cultures, even the miraculous advancement of pyramidal architecture skills of, for example, in the 2500 BC timeframe, followed by regressions of all these skills for the next 3000 years by the majority of world peoples.

Clearly there were EXCLUSIVE cultures which focused on the KNOWLEDGE and the SCIENCES of mathematics and architecture and metallurgy, and alchemy, and, they didn't share their knowledge.

Having restated what you already know, it has been a personal goal of mine to play historic detective on these advanced cultures and their skill sets.

Ancient Identical Stone Wall Masonry
I am proposing I have solved one of the missing puzzle pieces, how a stone-cutting culture such as the Tiwanaku of Bolivia, and Cuzco of Peru, with its laser-cut stone walls, could be so advanced, so ancient in historic time frames, (predating Inca I believe), but not have any IDENTICAL stone-cutting examples from anywhere else in the world.

Only my opinion, but how could the world’s most exquisite architectural masonry, with impossible curvilinear, multi-faceted wall-building, have air-tight, non mortared stone fittings, and be totally isolated from all other masonry examples from around the world? How can any culture go from mud-brick walls to laser-cut walls?

I absolutely did not believe it. The short of it is that I am proposing that the stone-cutting architectural features of Tiwanaku of Bolivia, and Cuzco of Peru, match identically with the stone-cutting architectural features of the Hittite culture found in or nearby Hattusa in present day Turkey.

Now there are various supporting clues from previous authors, such as:

1. World-Mysteries.com mentioning Sumerian cuneiform being found in the Tiwanaku area….
Fuente Magna - Rosetta Stone of the Americas
http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_8.htm

2. The Mayan devotional method of self-inflicting a spined twine through the tongue, in reverence of the Supreme King, has been associated directly with the Hittites of the Hattusa/Lebanon/Syrian/Turkey areas.

3. The Mayan funerary sarcophagi -methods of construction were mentioned in a book called The Great White Conquerors, as being identical to the Hittite customs…

4. The Hittites, Hyksos, Israelites, Persians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Nubians, Greeks, and Phoenicians all came from the same area, they all had access to ocean going vessels, and their naming conventions are saturated among the Western Hemisphere “Amerindian” tribes…

The only negative, and it is a major negative, is that these same Hittites were heavily bearded, and there is scant evidence of any bearded culture in the ancient Western Hemisphere.

But just as there seems to be a plausible match between Hattusa, Turkey, and Tiwanaku-Cuzco in Bolivia/Peru, we are left with the puzzlement of the ages….

what Natural or man-made disaster allowed cultures to rise up to such exquisite skill and knowledge, and then virtually disappear off the face of the earth, with all that knowledge lost, and neighboring tribes plunged into cave man status once more!?!

[Richard Haut]

Fascinating subject ....

One of the reasons for what appears to be a partial spread of knowledge can of course be trade routes.

Knowledge could reach, say, China from the Middle East along the Silk Road. The wealth came because of the route, and so the creation of a centre which was affluent enough to use the knowledge.

Nomadic or semi-nomadic peoples did not leave great stone buildings or monuments because their culture, had no need of it. Perhaps, like the Inuit, it was limited to small sculptures and effigies.

Could ancient knowledge have spread from the Middle East to central and south America ? If it is the case that the Indian culture was the result of a northerly migration from the Russian steppe, then yes, it is possible.

Both the advancement and then the decline in such centres and knowledge are often the result of invasion. The advancements brought by the Romans to their Empire were spectacular, even by today's standards. The Arab occupation of Spain brought ideas that lay dormant long after. However they did not reach the distant points of their Empires in order to share knowledge. Conquerors oppress and occupy. What we see today are what they left behind - their Temples, their Arenas, their roads.

Left to themselves many cultures evolve to very high standards (before the British Imperialists smashed Burma, there was 95% literacy). Some of these cultures become over-refined and simply decay - as happened in China, with the only real reaction to the death blow from British drug traders being the Boxer Rebellion of a hundred years ago. What we see of those self-created cultures are what is left after the looting.

Can one trace the links ? Can one understand why the Dark Ages, entire centuries without apparent progress, happen ? I suppose that one cannot find definitive answers, but one can find clues. However, go outside even the most advanced and refined centre of learning and one can be going back Centuries. Off the trade routes, by sea or land, there was often little communication between one village and another, let alone with cities or distant cultures.

[Ed Ziomek]

In my further research, as usual I find several previous theories on the Hittite/Tiwanaku connections, that predated my own by several years...

From a remarkable set of photographs, truly historic treasures, and he doesn't realize it yet... Jean Zignani's photostream on Flickr...
Tiwanaku/Cuzco-style stone-cutting, found in Bogazkale, Turkey (aka Hattusa)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgzignani/89707286/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgzignani/89714178/

Mystic Places, by Alex Sokolowski
A Link between Egypt and Americas?
compares stone cutting techniques between Egypt and Cuzco...
http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl.htm

Proto-Aztecan pictographs? Found in Bogazkale, Turkey...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgzignani/89707287/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgzignani/89714176/

Note: Of the many translations that the name Hattusa could be, one plausible definition, in the Egyptian explanation would be.... Hah-T-chaus, Divine Chief (Tchaus) of Eternity (Hah).

Other explanations, given several similar meanings to "Hah" -or "Haiti", or "A-T", in ancient Egyptian, could be... "Divine Chiefs" of the "Sun and Moon", and/or also refer to Osiris, "creation", and even "life-death-resurrection".

While I am guessing here, based on the translations in Wallis Budge's 1921 "An Egyptian Hieroglyhphic Dictionary", all explanations could mean the exact same thing.

I am now suspecting that the rock carvings at Petra, and the Machu Picchu stone cuttings, both mentioned on the new "7 Wonders" list, may have been built by the same Hittite culture.

Petra style stone cutting, found at Center of Kümbet village halfway between Eskisehir and Afyon (Yazilikaya'nın yanında)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jgzignani/89680806/

Thanks Rich, thanks "Jean Z" Zignani

[P.C.]

I alway's wondered if there are not any other methods to make such accurate fit, -- the pyramides these walls --- and I am sorry but untill they find an aincient laser I rather belive that the technike lost , deal with what would be called "Liquid stone" --- a different concrete maybe, realy I find this a much more realistic thought. Think about it, all the problems impossible to solve ,with transport of huge stones and this perfect fit , --- yu can't even move one pyramide stone into the corner of two others ,this is not possible unless, unless each stone are cast up towerds the one before and behind.
All those impossible tasks would be solved, case the pyramides was made by cast blocks. And realy it is and was impossible to transport esp. by ship as any ship or barge would simply beach or sink and the cargo would be impossible to land, so my suggestion , liquid stone, concrete of some forgotten substance.

[P.C.]

Forgot to add --- laser cutting leave sharp edges, I wonder what other technike than hand forming would leave such nice rounded edges just like they was rounded by feel.

[Ed Ziomek]

PC...I am flabbergasted and perplexed, always have been, at the IMPOSSIBLE logarithmic curvatures that perfectly fit, one 5 ton stone to another.

And there is a scientific study of a "liquid pour" type stone that was discovered recently.

There are also the possibilities that giant clay models of the interface were made, and if you add a calcium or chalk substance, possibly you could see the high points and then "sand rub" by hand the imperfections.

To your point of the smoothness of the "laser cuts", which I just meant as a descriptive phrase, not as a technical ability, I think the Hittites were amazingly first-aware of metallic cutting tools, harder than limestone or granites or other rock materials. And with that knowledge, I believe they were also the first to introduce the lightweight chariot, strong enough to carry a fully armed man, AND be pulled by a charging horse, AND light enough to be transported across gullies by a single person.

But let me add one other possibility, and that is the concept of "growing rocks", let me speculate here...cut the stones close enough to get a tight fit, then water them down with crushed limestone and ??? lime and clay dust...calcify the remaining gaps???

If you notice, the Cuzco stone cuts do not even allow a finger hold for climbing... you can't climb these walls. Great for defense!

Your "liquid rock" ideas are good ideas, no doubt, I have none better, ...and I am still flabbergasted and perplexed in amazement.

[P.C.]

In particular about the so caled transport of particular huge stone parts my emagination newer was enough , enough for me to even emagine any vessel that in a low water mud bottom river would offer the abilities required -- to load these impossible volumes without the vessel hitting the bottom or compromise the structure of the vessel ; we see antique boats from the time, not a promising example for the advanced technology this ask, ---- my suggestion are con tricks.....
A manufactored Dig with fabricated traces of stone cutting "proving" for our eyes to see, that "here" was the stone cut and then "naturly" transported by ship -- there are no other option --- no one would question so many generations after ,what you can see with your eyes, and all conclutions are true But, if these Pyramides are way older, and these kings just wanted to brag about them building the pyramides ; so little is needed to con , a fake stone dig #proving" the mighty povers .
Many rooms in the pyramides are not decorated why, maybe becaurse what we see is Grafitti ; "I build this --- just look where the stones was cut and transported from, -- still no one can explain transport of the stones, a transport that would be impossible today -- the vessel would sit on the bottom or break, and it would be even harder to unload.

[P.C.]

Please allow me to stray ; the writing lining in particular fooms inside the pyramides , display ad being rather imprinted with blocks of symbols rather than chisseled with copper chissels --- there obviously by sight are a layer with the symbols ; how is that made, sheets of writing, the top tool at the times leaving no off chipped copper btw. Perhaps clay as you suggest indeed change into stone over time , these symbols atleast display as later aditions ,beside they seem to come off over time , as if it realy are a layer prepared with easy writing stamped into a soft cvlay as how we would do it yestoday, rather than chisseled with huge effords into a thin wall decoration , you see it is not i the stones but added. How it is said it is made, don't explain even that. and everything based on a con trick.

[Ed Ziomek]

PC...I still am on the side that they most probably were cut from stone using very dense metallic cutting hammers, probably bronze-ish. That is the alleged reason the Hittites made an encampment in Bolivia, it is theorized, for the Tin, which is a rare metal even today.

How they found the tin...another phenomena!

But back to square one...how dumb are we as a world, when we guess at the stone cutting methods of 3500+ years ago, or even guess at the "con job"..., and certainly the newly discovered method of "liquid stones" from the Mesopotamia area is still a mystery....

Remember, the art of making concrete like the Romans used was lost for ??? 1900 years? and many of the Roman concrete-assisted structures are still standing in France, Italy, Britain, even Egypt!

Anything is possible, but first I want to re-table the many-published discussions on the Hittite presence in ancient Bolivia/Peru and Central America, which I am adding to.

[Richard Haut]

Ed

tin was mined in Cornwall (south-west England) for about 4,000 years.

as for Per's "con tricks" there have been many examples of people moving and certainly splitting large stone blocks today in an attempt to discover how such things were done. (The accurate splitting of stone involves making holes and inserting wooden pegs which are then soaked with water. The expansion causes the precise split - this method appears to have been known in many areas).

that knowledge can spread from one region to a distant area I can understand, but if there is a direct trading-link, wouldn't there be definite signs of that ?

[P.C.]

You are quite right, and it would be impossible and arogant to say it was done like this or that whitout all the clues so much are been lost still, the old roman concrete ,I think that has been almost analysed --- if it has been copied and tested I don't know . But I like challancing with these examples as the answer could be any other than what we think.
But I still like my con trick example ; it is much easier to use an old stone dig to prove that that's where the impossible project began , it is easier to halve way's cut an koloss stone , point to it and say " see that would have the same dimentions when finished, as these other stones at the pyramide -- most people would not see the con trick, esp made so many years ago, and we do belive that this or that kong realy build the pyramides. Well all they needed to do, was in fact to stage a stone dig ,so it look as if this was where they cut the stones --- and the halve done stones where are the halve made temple they belong to.

"I MADE THIS" that's the messeage in the tombs, but why didn't they use all of it , why do we today find passeage thru the pyramides ; becaurse they didn't find them and decorate these to. My claim are vain kings and pyramides that are much older than just that. Still what would the whole thing be worth without thous unanswered mysteries.

[Ed Ziomek]

For your information....

From a great website... called "Golden Age Project", in the UK....

THE GOD KINGS AND THE TITANS
Comparison of Aztec hlyphs from Mexico with Cretan glyphs on the Phaistos disc by Svein-Magnus Crodys
http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/67Godkings2.html

Trademarks of the Bronze Age Mining and Trading Companies
http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/298trademarks.html

Comparing Cretan and Hittite....
http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/151hittite.html

The World's Oldest Books...http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/325oldbooks.html
A comparative list of signs from the Easter Island script and the Indus script, comparison made by de Devesy. From this it is likely that the scripts are related. The script, according to Heyeerdahl, was brought to the island from South America. South America was colonized from India both by the Pacific and the Atlantic routes, in the third and fourth millennia B.C., but most often via the Mediterranean and the Atlantic. The columns with even numbers represent the Easter Island script, those with odd numbers represent the Indus Valley script."

Symbols
Comparing Sumerian (similar to Hittite-Aztecan), Cuneiform; Comparing Hebrew names, Canaanite, early/late Greek, Latin
http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/113symbols.html

Two interesting reads...

In Quest of the White Gods, Pierre Nonore
http://www.israelect.com/reference/WesleyASwift/extra/WHITEGOD.htm
"800 years ago the Arab Adbul Calif visiting the pyramid of Giza noted that the stones fitted together so exact that neither hair or pin could go into the joints between them. In 1880 Sir Flanders Petrie in examining the inside of the Pyramid found that the faults in measurements and angles were small enough to be 'covered by a thumb'. The Spaniards found this same type of perfection in Inca land. Fergusson wrote of Cuzcos' architecture that it was beyond anything achieved by the Greeks or Romans, or in the Middle Ages. Even more imposing...that the buildings of Cuzco were the old Inca fortresses from which the Indians organized their resistance to the Spaniards. For instance the huge fortress of Saczahuamed, just outside the Capital as well as the fortress Allontaytambo equally gigantic, deep in the jungle of the Andes, the ruins of which have survived. We have to go back to the earliest civilizations of Europe, to Tiryns, and Mycenae to find anything comparable to these Inca buildings. And the Incas had something which the Aztec did not have, scales of balance, and measurements which are the foundations of all science. The Incas had their measures, and they used beam scales like those of Ancient Rome or beyond. The Incas used the Roman division of their army into units of ten, hundreds, and thousands, and they also used the decimal system."

...and ...In Quest of the Great White Gods: Robert Marx

As I suspected, ALL my "theories" are just re-discoveries, of published books on identical theories, written decades ago, even hundreds of years ago! Much, if not most of this information is found in every library in the United States.

[P.C.]

Thank you , it already look very interesting, I look forwerds to spend the time reading thru.

[joym]

The resources and information you provided are all interesting, although the same quastion still reamins as to how this knowledge on architecture has never reached the modern times (our time). Although we can say that this is not solely on architecture, in fact almost all aspect of their lives, sciences and art are gone except for very few relics and clues that were able to survive to date.

[Ed Ziomek]

Joym...

It is too true. It seems like cultures that would retain surrounding cultures would thrive. Cultures that destroyed surrounding cultures, including entire libraries and the destroying of books and parchments, would usually set back that culture and humanity for hundreds of years.

I guess the lesson to be learned is...tolerant cultures thrived, intolerant cultures were set back.

I told you of the Egyptian skill of taking hundreds of turquoise beads the size of a tweezer head, and drilling holes in them, 500 years before the Moses era. In the same timeframe are gemstone inlays among curved, wraparound, gilded frames, virtually impossible for modern craftsmen to accomplish.

There is the unconfirmed story of an 1500 BC-Egyptian era mummy, which was transported to England, and xrayed in modern times (basically looking for gold), only to find a silver pin in its knee. It's knee had been reconstructed during its lifetime, and the patient had survived.

There is the story of a 700 page book of flower-medicines, from the Mayan-Aztec tribes, written down by a Spanish priest, which has only been partially translated. The Aztec medicines were superior to the Conquistadors, and much of this knowledge was deliberately destroyed and lost.

There is the artwork on the right side of the Western wall of Teotihuacan, apparently showing a dual-beast figure of a doggish face and a snake- head tail, cradling a severed head. This could possibly depict the binary Star (and tail) known as Sirius A and B, with the mythical red (giant?)Sirius C, which may have disappeared over the last 5000 years. How could any humans have understood a binary or triple star cluster without optics? The left side of Teotihuacan arguably shows Tehoti, the Moon God, with the right side arguably Set, Sutekh, Sirius, aka ...the Morning star. So the net-net might be the Crescent Moon and Morning star, identical to the Turkish and Pakistani National flag.

http://img185.imageshack.us/my.php?image=teotihuacan5na8.gif

We are just now learning a small percentage of what the ancients knew 5000 and 10,000 years ago.

Note: I am re-posting the graphic image of Tiwanaku and Hattusa, Turkey due to inconsistent server issues....

http://www.mypicshare.com/thumbs/20070818/s9sepmfz.jpg