plans available on internet

[csintexas]

I guess I should expect that because architects online don't seem to treat each other much better.

I'm in three forums, I have tried harder to be fair than anyone else.

Show me one rude word I have said where I was not insulted first.

Have my own little forum, I don't think one architect has said a word there.
You would think someone at least would be more friendly than that.

Most architects online seem to want to be hurtful instead of helpful.

in my opinion.

[kmapro]

[phansford]

Chris, I sent you a couple of PMs. I hope you will respond. Thanks.

[mx2]

"Speaking of intercourse...

It seems the same players keep repeating ourselves on the very same subject and enter the very same confrontation..."

mx2.5

[csintexas]

[mx2]

????...who is wry? Did you post to the wrong post?

[csintexas]

Yes I did

thanks, I got it fixed.

[kmapro]

Yes, mx2..this does come up again and again..and admittedly, lately I have been at or near the hart of it.

I didn't respond to your earlier posting because I knew that you and I had been through it before. I felt that be the two of us ending the war of words on our own, that we had come to some what of a peace treaty.

I honestly and truly do not have a thing against architects. I admire them for, both the work that they do and the knowledge and education they have behind them.

But when I am insulted, the gloves come off. In this latest rant by he who chooses to ignore me, both of my professions were insulted/down graded and my peers were insulted at the same time.

That was the basis of my rant...and it was only a rant...a heated opinion and me talking out loud. I wasn't calling anybody out...I was merely stating my opinion and had it turned into a battle.

Was I looking for a fight??? No, I was looking for a response.

All I have ever asked is to be treated fairly. Not to be talked down to or looked down the nose at....and never to be referred to as "support staff"!!!

Yes, that got under my skin.

I will admit it...your education and knowledge of building structures far exceeds my capabilities and/or desires. You have studied architecture in both art and science forms..you have learned building methodologies, structural componentry. material composition and analytical problem solving. You went to school for that...I applaud you and pat you on the back for a job well done. I am sure that your design work is of the finest quality.

I, on the other hand did not go to school for what I know..other than how to draw on the computer.

But, I learned building methodologies, structural componentry, material composition and analytical problem solving...but I went to work for my education.

I learned to design by looking at residential structures and asking myself..how did they do that?...why did they do that? ...how can I make it better? I would then set out and solve those questions on my own.


One thing that does puzzle me about architects though..and this is not just directed at you, it is a statement in general....

Architecture is what you studied...architect is your title...but if you design a single family residential dwelling, then residential design is what you do..and a residential designer (at least for that project) you are.

So when a licensed architect degrades a "residential designer" are they not degrading themselves as well?

And YES, I know that your title "architect" will hold more water than my "make believe" title of "residential designer". I am not, nor have I ever, questioning that.

Now, do not take this posting as a rant...I am merely making statements and asking questions. I am too tired to rant at the moment.....

[RSCarcht]

KMAPro:
There are good architects and bad architects, good residential designers and bad designers, good contractors and bad contractors.

Because there are fewer health and safety concerns for many single family houses, architects are not required to be involved in many areas. (I personally think this approach leads to a lot of inferior work being built but that is beside the point.)

I think the problem from the architectural perspective comes when their is an intentional blurring of the lines between qualified professionals in the marketplace. Architects spend a huge amount of time, money and energy to acquire the knowledge (and registrations) that they possess. When clients say but "I can buy a plan for $1000" or a "house designer quoted me $2500" architects are agog and aghast and wonder how so much misinformation got out into the public realm about what a set of plans really is. This is perhaps why architects can get so heated on the subject.

In the end, the proof is in the pudding. If you are designing great houses using quality materials and authenic details your work will stand the test of time and you are properly serving your clients. If a lack of attention, experience or knowledge prevents the design from being as good as it should be, your clients (and society as a whole) is not being well served. We will only know definitively in a few decades as time will be the ultimate judge.

Here's a question: as a "residential designer" what destinct roles do YOU think should exist between what you do and what architects should be doing?

[kmapro]

Ross - Thank you for taking a calm approach to this dilemma.

I agree with you. There are good and bad architects and good and bad residential designers. They key is to educate the public to this fact and make them aware that there are other options available.

A site bought plan is great IF there are no changes or modifications to be made. Once you get into changes, there are all sorts of structural concerns that have to be considered.

Moving a wall 6" may create a major ordeal within a roof bracing situation. It could cost the builder a lot more money in material and labor vs. leaving th wall where it is.

A good architect or designer would bring this to light for the builder\home owner.

Yes, I am out to make money, but not at the cost of someone else. I want them to know, up front, what kind of problems/solutions associated with their changes.

I have said it in the past...I truly have nothing against architects. I respect them for what they do and have done...and I admire them for the same reasons.

I only get upset when an architect has a superiority complex and feels that we "non-licensed" designers are pee-ons or "support staff". When in fact, there are several of us out here who have been through the ranks and are able to supply very buildable plans that are very effective for design and build.

Yes, my comments in other posts have all seemed negative torward architects..especially with comments like, "why is architecture listed under arts vs science"..yes that was a low blow, but the fact of the matter is, I realize that architecture is a marriage between art and function.

Let's face it..completing a project that has all of the customer's desires AND is aesthetically pleasing is a challenge...but that is what makes the job fun.

Ross, I value your input and Thank you for contributing.

EDIT:
Sorry, I completely forgot to answer your question.

An architect is probably more apt to take the whole project under his arm amd specify everything. They are probably more apt to follow the job from concept to completion. Sadly, I must say, most residential designers view their designs as "out of sight...out of mind". They do not follow the plan through to completion. Once the design is complete and they are paid...they are out of the loop.

I do not take that approach. I make myself available through out the build and I aften go by and check up on the job. I like to take pictures and document things that I see as potential problems, go back to my office, resolve the issue and then bring it to the builders attention.

As we all know, the construction world (residentially speaking) is full of yahoos who have a hammer and automatically think they are a builder. You have heard the term, "too many chiefs and not enough indians"? Well, that is sort of what we have.

There are too many framers out there calling themselves builders who do not know the first thing about quality construction and safe building methods.

Case in point...how many straight walls do you find in a house these days? Ask a cabinet installer that question and I am sure you will get a chuckle out of him.

In order to help our industry grow (and I am speaking of residential architects and residential designers), we need to be out there making builders, framers and home owners aware of the alternative materials available that would help to eleviate the problems that modern home construction has. Make them aware that by simply purchasing a site plan does not mean that they have all the information that they need.

I am sure that we all know that pricing for certain projects has risen due to complexity issues - like non-straight walls for cabinet installation. These cabinet installers, granite installers, etc have all raised their prices based on this fact. They know that when they get out there, they are going to have to make adjustments in the field because a wall is not straight or plum. this causes more time to be allocated to the project and takes time away from other projects.

If we (architects and designers) can become more active in material specifying and increase our education about materials, then I think we can turn the general public's opinion around. They will no longer think of our profession as wasted over head. As in "Why should I pay you thousands of dollars for a plan when I can get what I want, almost, from buying a site plan?" Well, the key term in there was "almost"....one will never find a plan that they like with no changes what so ever.

Maybe they would see the need for an architect or a skilled residential designer. Maybe, just maybe, they will see that what we do is more than pushing a pencil.

John Q. Public views what we do as drawing. Making straight lines with pencils, or as my wife puts it, "pointing and clicking". They don't understand the fore and aft thought process behind every line we make...every item we place.

As we design, we have an image in mind..the final image. It is our job to make sure that we encapsulate that image and provide a safe structure for the occupant. All the while trying to keep the cost to build at a minimum as well.

No, I am not a member of any professional organizations at the moment. I am in the process of joining my local HBA, which will put me in the NHBA. I am also looking to join up with the AIBD and quite possibly the ICC.

Through my local HBA, my goal is to educate the builders associated with, the importance of a quality design and how it can lead to quality craftsmanship.

Now, I may not have directly addressed your actual question, but I would hope that you have summed up an answer by my response.

[phansford]

I think I have been fairly clear and consistant in my stance. Unfortunately, some forum members continually want to debate the issue or take umbrage to the slightest comments.

http://www.designcommunity.com/forums/topic-13988.html

http://www.designcommunity.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12354&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Support staff is a common term. It's interesting that some people take offense. Everyone is or has been suport staff to someone else - unless you own the company. Project Architects and Project Managers are support to the Department Heads/Principals, Associate Architects and CAD operators support PA's and PM's. Administrative Assistants support everyone. Subconsultants are retained to provide support.

I think some people just need to grow a thicker skin........ and run out and pick up my lunch order....... its about noon here in Ohio.

[kmapro]

phansford - I went back and checked out those posts. You had a different demenaor about your postings then.

Yes, I would have to include you, based on those earlier postings, as one of the few architects that would, perhaps, give a non-licensed residential designer their props for a job well done.

Now, to this thread.....

I do have thick skin and most stuff usually bounces right off of me. BUT reading your postsings in this thread, with me already having an ill-conceived notion about what you were going to say, really ticked me off. If you go back and read the post where you referred to "support staff" you will understand why that might have outraged me - or any other non-licensed residential designer.

You cannot deny that you did not type that out with the slightest of ill meanings..I know it was directed at me because I am the one who got you flared up as well.

Listen, by gones are by gones..I think we both agree that the general public needs to be more educated about what they are buying. Us, being architects and Residential Designers need to work torward that common goal and stop bickering amongst ourselves.

You know, just as much as I know, that any one that comes here to gain knowledge, or ask a real question will be turned off by the fact that we are are arguing over what is better.

An architect knows more than I do about architecture..I can and will admit that. They have a more in depth knowledge about the whole building and structuring aspect of a building. The knowledge that you posess about the history of architecture, the in-depth knowledge that you have about reactions of materials and the science behind it all is far beyond my means as a non-licensed designer. And I am OK with that.

Now, I said that your knowledge and skill set is beyond mine but that does not mean that I am not capable of designing a good house plan...a great house plan.

You see, I like to learn. If I don't know the answer to something, I make it a goal to figure it out. I want to know everything there is to know..will I ever achieve that...probably not. I don't even think an architectural degree would give me that.

That, along with the skills and abilities I do posess, is what makes me a good designer - IMO. Am I the best...doubtfull, but only time will tell...can I match the design of an architect..I guess it is possible, but that doesn't mean I am a better designer than an architect. Nor does it imply that I am of the same caliber of an architect.

I am not an architect and have never, or will ever, claim to be. I make this point up front with my clients. But when it comes down to it, having a title of "architect" doesn't mean squat to the public if that "architect" is not putting out quality designs..same goes for "residential designer".

But in reality, the general public could be looking at an out house and think it is the best set of laid out drawings they have ever seen...they could even be drawn on a napkin. The common goal that we should be looking at is the eductaion level that we can provide to the public about quality design work. Teach them that there is more to it than just drawing lines....then and only then will architects or residential designers gain the just deserved recognition.

Will this discussion come up again - more than likely...will it be an arguement...my guess would have to be yes...will I be involved in the arguement..probably, but only if I, or my peers, is offended in any way.

I am not backing down on my stance that residential design/drafters are not pee-ons. I am presenting an opportunity to work with you to better our knowledge of what each does. I can learn from you and you could quite possibly learn from me at some point or another.

But we could both work to educate the public and bring them back into the light of what good architecture or design work is.

[mx2]

No, we never buried the hatchet kmapro. It's one thing to go man to man, but when you start picking on my little girl, I lost all respect for you as a person, repardless of the sorry excuses you keep dishing out about that. It's not how you dance around the issue; it's all about how I feel about it. But as far as the topic of architects goes, you're basically an oustider looking in which makes this whole thing uncomfortable. For one, you seem to have no idea what architects truly do, and yet you dismiss architects repeatedly while trying to somehow convince us that residential draftsmen are the same thing, if not better in most regards. Then you backpeddle and say you mean no insult then turn into a raging asshole when anyone attacks you back. So which is it? You know what...who cares. you are what you are.

mx2.5

[kmapro]

When did I ever attack your little girl? I don't recall that at all....I didn't even know you had children...

I am sorry that you feel that way mx2.

I never went on a raging rant. I merely stated my opinions and I guess the old saying is true, they are like assholes...

All I ask is that you keep your opinions of me centered on me..do not judge all residential designers by the personal reflections you have of me...I have said it time and time again. I speak for myself and not for the whole of my peers.

I made an attempt at a calm closing to a heated debate and it didn't work....oh well

[kmapro]