plans available on internet

[csintexas]

???

[kmapro]

Yeah, I didn't think it was I who did that....

[mx2]

Oops...

It was Orkblork.

Uuuh...will you accept a sorry kmapro?

Mea culpa...wasn';t thinking clearly./

mx2.5

[kmapro]

We all make mistakes mx2.....

I'll accept yours if you accept mine for stretching my boundaries a bit in my response to your posting. I was a bit put off by the accusation and probably responded a little on my hot headed side.

I am a father as well (3 children) and I, for the life of me, couldn't think of any instance where I would have brought someone's child into any of my discussions.

[phansford]

If anyone suggests a group hug..... I will puke.

[kmapro]

Come on phansford..you know you want to join in on it

[mx2]

I realize I have always had conflicts with RD's in this forum...all of them, and I donpt think that is coincidence. I think it's a reflection of the mindset of RD's towards architects and architecture and me being defensive/offensive for the architectural profession simply puts me on the other side. I think the problem lies in that it would be best of RD's accept that they do not provide architectural services but are simply Residential Designers and live with that positive fact. It has nothing to do with architecture, at least no more than builders, interior designers, structural engineers, landscape architects, mechanical'electrical/plumbing engineers, subcontractors, clients, building officials and accountants do...

There is no need for these offensive discussions. There is room for respect and admiration for what everyone does respectively. But when we try to overlap, compare and contrast, it is not possible to avoid conflict and insult. RD's do what RD's do better than anyone, including architects. And architects do what they do best. Do we agree?

As for kmapro, I'm twice as guilty as you at losing my cooolheadednessitivity...and all that. Sure, I can accept that we disagree on principle but can agree on merit. In otherwords, we can agree to disagree and move on to constructive discussions. I did think you were the guy who had insulted me and my newborn who also an RD and had a terribly bad conflict wth me that simply resulted to pure insult and I shall never forget and cannot forgive. His position was similar to yours in that he was "sick and tired" of what he perceived was attacks against RD's and ended up being my worst nightmare on this forum...again, sorry for the confusion and the ill-targeted insults...

Let's move on. As for phansford vs kmapro, again, I don;t blame either of you for being as I am...but there is no doubt this is a total waste of energy on all our parts. I'm sick and tired of this on-going polemic between architects (almost-architects) and residential designers. What's the point? Why is it so important for RD's to repeatedly make the argument that they make, over and over again, about architecture and their business? It's enough that we have to hear it from builders, other designers and building officials...is it bec....aaaaaaaaha!! I know the million dollar answer, the same answer as it always is: it's about the money. It's all about competition...am I right everyone?

mx2.5

[csintexas]

yep, I think we are all very competitive by nature.

My feeling is that this type of discussion has merit because it allows us to understand each others perspective better.

On my own forum I will probably make an attempt to keep this type of discussion separated from the general discussion but on this and other design forums there is no built in way to separate issues. We would need something like a forum for complaints.

[kmapro]

Hey mx2 that has to be one of the best postings I have read from you.

Yes, humans are competetive in nature and their will always be heated discussions between RDs and Archs.

The fact of the matter is, as I have stated over and over - I am not an architect and have never conveyed myself to be one.

Architects and RDs do the same things and they do different things at the same time. As I mentioned before, an architect is more likely to be there through out the project, most RDs aren't.

Architects may look at things in a different light that a RD does.

For instance, I like clean simple lines. As I design, I try to think about the contractors who will be building these "images" I am displaying. I try to find ways to make my designs more "user friendly".

For instance, I like to keep all my interior room dimensions divisible by 4'-0" plus 1" in the opposite direction. Why? Because I like to have room layouts compatible to sheet rock dimensioning. As example, my secondary bedrooms (in my home) are all 12'-0" by 12'-1". I did this because I knew I would be hanging sheetrock. I used 12' rock 1/2" thick...see where I am going with this?

I am not saying that architects don't think about these things, but MOST of the architect designed structures I have seen are a bit more on the abstract side of things. Funky corner, non-45 degree turns and such.

This design style can wreak havoc on the contractors and designers that have to work off of these plans. It leaves them in a guessing game for layout at times.

Now, I am not saying that this is wrong, just different than what I like....my likes are my likes and may not reflect well with others, but I have received much praise for my work and fore thought on my projects.

I have also said, many times before, that I do not have anything against architects. I just don't like it when an architect tries to insinuate that a RD can't do it and they can.

No not all of them say that or insinuate that, but it has become accustom on this board at times. And that is when I get heated...the verbal attacks on my good name don't really bother me that much...I just enjoy a good debate.

I have to admit, I got a chuckle out of you posting "almost architect"..how close are you now? I know you were interning or working through the finals of your degree during our first spat...any way - good luck to you. I am sure that you will make a fine one.

[RSCarcht]

So we are more than halfway through the 12 step program (I looked them up on the web). We've made it through Honesty, Hope, Faith, Courage Integrity Willingness and Humility. Next comes TRUTH.

The truth it that architects have worked incredibly hard to get their educations, and (if they were stubborn enough) to actually get licensure after years of serving as field hands in the plantations of the architectural profession. The compensation is not what they expected and they are often bitter.

Bitter at the clients who have no appreciation for good design, bitter at developers and builders who desecrate the landscape, bitter at interior designers who have a much better economic model and more client recognition, and bitter at "interlopers" who seem to have "cut" into the design line. KMAPRO, you have explained your personal situation as well as anyone in an AA meeting could have been asked to. There will always be tension between the RD's and the architects like there will always be tension between the cobra and the mongoose. You are probably more competition if you do a good job than if you do a poor one.

I will say that I am not sure that consigning a child of sleeping a lifetime in a bedroom 2' too narrow or 2' too wide just to save a one sheetrocker a single cut isn't letting the (tip of the) tail wag the dog, but that may be an architectural perspective. My honest hope is that finish your degree and join the profession at just the same moment that living in a badly designed house or working in badly design building goes the way of plaid bellbottoms and Farah Fawcett hair. How's that for truth!? Sadly, I do not believe that “wild fantasization” in one of the twelve steps.

[kmapro]

Ross, I am confused by your last posting. You bring a great deal of education and knowledge to the table, yet your postings read of skepticism.

I understand the growth period you and all architects had to go through and I admire your for your efforts - just as I do any other architect

My only hope is that I am misunderstanding your words and that we are agreeing that we all - true rds and archs - need to better educate the public to our services.

Yes, it is sad that an individual is able to go out to best buy and purchase a $20 software package...draw a few lines and then expect to build a home off of those lines....but, society has made that available and has allowed that to happen....

While we sit idle at our desks waiting for that phone call...or visit job site after job site in an effort to drum up business.

You see there are far more people who buy a hammer at Home Depot and think that makes them a framer. There are way too many hammer swingers out there that call themselves framers. There are way too many framers (if there are any actual left) that call them selves builders...the list keeps going..all the way down to people who can draw a line in cad program who think they are designers.

We have to face it. True professionalism is on it's way out the door...all we can do is try to hold it off for as long as we can...promote our services and make the general public aware of our presence...and get the word out to as many people as we can.

My bit about the sheetrock was just a thought that I put into design. The premise does not truly determine the design for me. I design to meet the needs of my clients - even if it does mean an extra cut from the sheetrock guy...

[csintexas]

[RSCarcht]

I am not of course talking about ALL clients and ALL builders, but there are are those out that that are guilty as charged. (I for one generally love my clients and have great fun working on their projects for them.)

If we don't aspire for a better world how are we ever going to get it? I don't ever want to believe that it is "impractical" or "high-minded" to do things well. In the end it is the smartest, most economic thing to build good design that will last both physically and aesthetically and you can't make me ashamed for feeling that way.

[RSCarcht]

Here were are many months later in a housing slowdown that is effecting everyone--builders, architects and RD's. I suspect many of the houses that were thrown up for the purpose a quick flip are sliding into foreclosure and that those responsible may be slipping into insolvency.

It is times like these when we are reminded what a building should be: a well designed, energy efficient, smartly sited place for people to live and work over the long-term. Building has become much more complicated than in the past and there are many more high-tech options that can improve the operation of the building for decades to come, but the structure has to have a design that is sophistacted enough to incorporate these features and owners that are sophisticated enough to ask for them! I am hoping that the current situation will be an opportunity to retain to a more appropriate and sustainable model for design and construction.

[O-Archy]

Hi Ross,

I am hoping you are right, that this current situation will help the shift in paradigm to the more sustainable, and efficient mode of building...
A more 'sophisticated' owner, man, that would be great!!

In my region, several forecasts show that we have a 5 - 20 year(!!) supply of housing stock and vacant lots, opinions vary, and many realtors are verrry nervous, due to their sales pitches about 'land values' and 'appraisals' among the 'quickflip' crowd, who are now wanting to see the 'gold at the end of the rainbow' but alas, it is only tin scrip...