Interesting Morph

[MRBILL]

As the person who started this particular post I have been facinated at how it has evolved from a question about purchasing stock plans on line into a discussion of differences between residential designers (I thought all were architects) and actual architects. Even beyond that it has been amazing to see the diffferences of opinions among the architects. Obviously, I am neither. I am just an old lawyer wondering about the best way to select a design for my retirement home. I do have a bit of advice for MX2.5 though. That would be to climb down off your high horse and remember that it is the client who pays the freight. This is in response to your last post where you admit to being bitter at clients who don't appreciate your design. They have that right! If your designs go unappreciated then the fault lies with you and not with the client. It is your professional responsibility to meet their expectations. Their responsibility is to pay the fee for your labor.Lawyers, like architects, deal in abstractions with our clients. We are in the business of presenting options for the client to consider. In any case, the client must agree upon the course of action. If your clients reject your design MX, then it is your job to revise the disign to meet their expectation of beauty, not theirs to meet your expectation. Without satisfied clients you will go hungry. I do hope that someday you will be in a position, as I am sure the best architects are, to design something without a client and then have the client buy from you so you can keep your architechural integrity. Until that day though, design what your client wants.

[RSCarcht]

What is nice about an online forum is that you have the opportunity to see people's innermost thoughts and actually see the evolution of their thinking.

As you can see, even from your own experience, there is a lot of misinformation out there in the marketplace and the design professions have generally done a poor job of education. That you were unaware of the difference between "architects" and "residential designers" is a case in point.

As a self described old "old lawyer" you have no doubt seen with your own clients that sometimes the longest, most difficult way to a destination is to try to take a short-cut. If you can find a set of plans that is exactly what you want, and get at least three bidders who will bid on the project you might go that direction. You will be on you own getting the project built, but you might be able to hire a construction manager to get you through that part of the process.

If you want any customization at all, I would recommend that you look around and find a small but competent architect to take you through the process. He (or she) will probably quote a fee of about 10% of the construction cost on either a percentage, time and materials or lump sum basis. However you will likely save between 6-15% on the bid by having a complete, coordinated set of drawings to bid from and you will have the opportunity to see the professionalism of your potential contractors firsthand during the bidding process. I generally recommend choosing among the bidders in the middle (low bidders are frequently too desperate and high bidders frequently too busy) based on quality of construction, trustworthiness and personality. Part of the fee you will pay your architect will cover the "construction administration"--watching the contractor to be sure the specified products and construction is being done as promised and solving unexpected problems that arise. Don't think of it as spending money on design. Think of it as saving money on unnecessary change orders and construction cost overruns.

The process of building a house, like taking a journey through the wilderness, can be fun and exciting. But it is a whole lot less dangerous and much more manageable if you have a good guide that knows the territory.

Taking MX's side, this is an forum where people can say what they think and who hasn't complained about unreasonable clients at one time or another? I am sure that MX, like other architects enjoys his work and enjoys the interaction with the vast majority of his clients. I for one believe that it is much easier to do good architecture with a client's input. A building is like a portrait of the way the client lives or works and portraits painted from life are much more real and interesting than ones drawn from imagination.

You have done a good job going out and getting information on the subject. I will be interested to see which route you take and how it all works out. Please keep us informed.

[kmapro]

Hey MRBILL..I haven't heard from you since our last email correspondence. I hope that I did not scare you off and that, in the midst of all the flared feathers, you were actually able to get some help.

For my self, I must apologize to you for stealing your thread. We, the architects and residential designers of this board, can get heated on certain subjects - especially those that are close at heart. We got out of control with the finger pointing and name calling and we all should have acted in a more professional manner.

I realize that you came here looking for advice as an "outsider" and we totally went over the hill, around the corner and through the woods (so to speak). We drug your thread through the mud and acted like school children with the age old arguement of "my daddy is better than yours".

There were some apologies between the designers and architects with in that thread, but the one true apology must be made to you sir.

I hope that our antics have not soiled our purpose and that you did find some true help within all the bickering.

Per your comment, "I thought they were all architects", I would like to make this statement.

As you may have seen, architects and designers are different, but they do serve similar purposes. The one true statement I can say is that we are all designers. Any architect who disagrees with that is in the wrong profession.

Architects are designers, but most good architects go far and beyond that sole purpose. An architect will usually see a project through to the end. He would probably be more versed in code applications and have a larger pool of contractors to pull from.

I am sure that an architectural firm screens possible contractors more vigorously than a residential designer would - if a residential designer would even provide that service.

I am not going to try and tell you what to do, as you are the only person who can make that decision. I can only offer some advice.

Think about the services you will receive with your purchase decision. When you purchase a set of plans from a website, that service stops when you receive the plans.
If you talk with a residential designer or an architect, find out their scope of work. Find out what they will do for you. Check their references and ask to see completed, or in progress, projects that they have had their hands on.

You may talk with 10 designers or architects, you need to feel them out and see which person, or firm, would be the best fit for you. You will need to form a relationship with that person/firm.

From my experience, your first visit with an architect or designer should be at no cost to you. This first meeting will basically be an introductory of their service and a chance for you to inform them of your expectations.

Do not plan on talking design on the first meeting. Let your first impression of the company you are dealing with guide you. If you don't like what you hear or if you feel pressured by the company - move on.

If you go to your builder - or a builder - make sure that you have a consultation with them as well. Ask for their references, ask to see some of their work and ask about their plan services. This area really needs to be examined.

There are builders and there are framers - make sure you know the difference. If the builder says he has a buddy of his that can take care of the plans for you..be cautious. Make sure that if he says he has someone, he gives you an actual name..either a firm (company) or an individual who specializes in design. Ask to meet with that person to work out the design for your home. Do not rely on third party communication.

Keep in mind that all of your wishes and desires may not be feasible within your price range (build wise), square footage requirements and possibly even builder capabilities.

there are many many more areas we could go in to. Please, if you have specific questions, post them and we will try to help you as much as we can. Without the added drama....

Thanks for returning and addressing the situation you saw. Not necessarily your comments in regards to mx2, but the fact that you noticed there was a feud. Sometimes, we have to be brought down a bit to realize what we are really doing. We were desicrating ourselves and it shows....

[csintexas]

I don't think MRBILL minded the meandering thread. He described it as fascinating. Where else can you find such a discussion and learn the perspective of such a diverse group of home designers?

The problem with residential designers is that there are no fixed standards. They range from people trained as architects who never went through the final licensing process to anybody with a CAD program who wants to call themselves a residential designer.

Regardless of what credentials a person has it is the quality of their past work which they should be judged by. You will find the scope of services residential designers provide varies from a basic plan set to daily involvement throughout the project.

Foundation systems are often designed by engineers these days (at least here in my area) and they will inspect their own work. You can also find independent inspection services which will provide additional quality control. I provide as little or as much service as my clients want.

[phansford]

[kmapro]

Het phans..calm down man.

I don't think, or at least I did not read it that way, that he disrespected your profession. I believe he was commenting on a particular individuals perceived mindset..not architects in general. He simply made an observation.

Your profession is safe, his words will not diminish your future endeavors.

He has clearly stated that he came here looking for advice. If we keep acting and responding in the same manner that we have been, we will drive future advice seekers away.

Since he is not in the profession of design, he is what we call "the public". Haven't we already ststed that "the public" need to be more educated about the services that we offer?

[csintexas]

wow, there goes this thread also

[MRBILL]

Geez, I didn't mean to step on any toes. Phansford, I apologise if I seem ignorant of your profession. I did not mean to offend you, either personally or generally. I simply pointed out the need for anyone to serve the needs of their customers first. I started this thread because I truly was looking for some advice from professionals as to the way I should proceed in planning my retirement home. What I have seen is, to a large extent, the pettiness of a few individuals who seem to hold themselves above the common man, some others with gigantic chips on their shoulders because they feel as though they are being slighted in some way (Architects and Residential Designers can both claim this one) and a few genuinely helpful people who have offered some grat advice. With that said I will sign off as I feel uncomfortable being involved in such petty squabbling. Adieu.

[phansford]

Your request for advice was this thread.....

http://www.designcommunity.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15332

This thread was you calling out MX2.

I stand by my comments.

[RSCarcht]

Oh NO! Mr. BILLLLLL! (Pardon the 1980's SNL reference).

To address KMAPRO's assertion that "we are all designers": this is an oversimplification of what we all do and the skills and knowledge with which we do it. I have had eight years of studying Art and Architectural history, classes in Spatial psychology, courses in Literary criticism all in addition to the typical Statics, Fluid dynamics and Architectural graphics courses that are at the foundation or our technical requirements.

How can one "design" without knowing the differences between Georgian and Federal Colonial styles or between Art Deco and Art Nouveau? How can one understand the current design trends without having read the manifestoes of the Futurists or the Constructivists? This type of knowledge can't be tested by the State because it does not directly effect "life-safety" so it is folded into the "educational requirements" needed to become an "architect." And it is these broad educational requirements that seem to be missing from many non-architectural certifications.

In the German language there is a differentiation between "Bauen" and "Architektur." They both involve structure and design but they are different things entirely—the first is utilitarian and the other aspirational. KMAPRO, you seem passionate about what you do, are free with your time and words and seem anxious to help inform others but PLEASE do not go to the (pardon the oversimplification) "they design, we design, but they just might help you through the construction" shtick. It is soooo much more complex than that, and that line only serves to confuse a public desperately in need of clarification.

I do agree with you however that we should not chase the public away (whether they be lawyers or not) because sites like this may be the only way for them to actually get better informed on the remarkable and difficult challenges designers and architects tackle every day and let the public understand how much better off they are with us than without us. It is the public element which is often missing from these internecine battles we wage and I, for one, think they have an important place at the table.

[mx2]

[mx2]

hahaha...oops!!!

I meant (of course): "public safety" stuff...

mx2.5

[mx2]

Sheesh...I just re-read the last thread from the beginning. My head's spinning now....!! ha!

Well, Mr. Bill, the simple answer is "do your homework first". This would entail, among other things, confirming what is required for building permit in your local jurisdiction (regardless if its stock home or not), then contacting a seller of stock home plans and discuss these issues (they should know the most common issues with stock homes) and then contacting a GC and request a preliminary quote (could be over the phone really...nothing formal) for pulling any permits (if needed) preparing the site, assembling the stock home and getting the final C.O.

You could conceivably do all this on the phone. Then you'd have an idea of what that route will take.

However I would recommend you at least call one architect (yellow pages) and ask them for a proposal for A&E services. That architect should request a survey, a program (list of spaces, total square feet), and an idea of what "style" you're looking for. Once you get a price from them, call the contractor (perhaps at same time as you call for quote for stock home) and ask how much to build the architect designed house. I predict the architect designed house will cost more on all levels, but then, this is where the entire subject becomes an issue of patience and understanding. The first question would be to ask why does it cost more. I would love to answer that if you're interested as it is an elaborate issue.

But I prefer to spend this rare moment of time to myself to address a far mor epressing matter, in my opinion: you want to build along the coast of Virginia (if I recall correctly). I am in South Florida and my concern always turns to the weather...regardless of severity of the average storms, my concern is in regard to the worst storm that could hit and along the coast. Let's just say, I recommend a custom built home and a professional to review (and hopefully design it). But then again, this circles nicely back to my first statement: first, confirm with the local jurisdiction what are the requirements for building permit. The safety issues will be addressed by the City/County/State...

I would only say, caveat emptor! It's not always best to simply go with the cheapest...especially if it's your home. But there is no need to waste your moeny either. Best of luck either way! I wish you a great retirement.

mx2.5

[kmapro]

mx2 - I am genuinely impressed...BRAVO...and I am not being a smart ass either..I am being honest.

[kmapro]