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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1948
Location: Miami, Florida
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 Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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I agree and would state that, yes indeed, ethics can ignore...should ignore politics. Ethics are the application of a set of values and politics tend to be swayed with the wind of specific agendas of a limited public. I mean limited in the sense that it's the public overseen by the politics in question. But the public at large, world wide that is, has a certain level of values that are...what's the word...??
...where's the old piece of paper?
(searching online)...
ah, "self-evident"!
We have the right to life. That is self-evident. An ethical choice in the profession of architecture would be to ensure the safety of the lives of the public.
The unethical choice would be to provide the opposite, and knowingly so. But the politics of man give no such self-evident distinction to these issues...being that politics is the "social relations involving authority".
Some do feel ethics and politics are intertwined but now we truly are delving into philosophy.
| Quote: | | Thomas Jefferson - “I consider ethics, as well as religion, as supplements to law in the government of man.” |
| Quote: | | Michael Josephson - “An ethical person ought to do more than he’s required to do and less than he’s allowed to do.” |
| Quote: | | F. G. 'Buck' Rodgers - “First, there is the law. It must be obeyed. But the law is the minimum. You must act ethically.” |
| Quote: | | Valdemar W. Setzer - “ Ethics is not definable, is not implementable, because it is not conscious; it involves not only our thinking, but also our feeling.” |
| Quote: | | Albert Schweitzer - “Let me give you a definition of ethics: It is good to maintain and further life it is bad to damage and destroy life.” |
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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pbacot
Joined: 15 Apr 2004
Posts: 844
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: |
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One of the most disgusting things I've seen is the architectural plans for a Nazi concentration camp.
Sure it is a personal decision. If the nature of the work doesn't bother you, why not do it?
1. Saying someone else is hypocritical doesn't release you to be the same.
2. Morals aren't about what governments do or about a mandated protocol by a group (although groups like the AIA might be forum for discussion). The original idea is just that architects consider and discuss the issue.
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1948
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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aaah...but that's just it: it's a personal choice. It is NOT assumed that everyone will be ethical, nor ethical all the time! Personal choices, including politics will often influence one's decisions...but it was Plato who said that no one would choose evil. That is, if one believes...truly believes...something is "good" they will not choose the opposite. The Nazi's believed in what they did...
Hence, why I feel there ought to be a clear distinction between ethics and politics.
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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Architorture
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Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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i think the plato thing is kind of cutting it a bit thin... so people do bad things b/c they believe they are "good" in their own world view... i think that is a big cop out...
people do things that are 'evil' knowing that the opposite is 'good'... i don't know that architecture often runs into such stark decisions... i think 'evil' architecture is generally in short supply...but it has happened |
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1948
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | people do things that are 'evil' knowing that the opposite is 'good' |
Hitler did what he thought was "good" for his country. That's an example of the premise. I didn't mean to insinuate that people do not recognize the evil that they do at all...here are his own words which is far better than I could conjure up:
| Quote: | | To prefer evil to good is not in human nature; and when a man is compelled to choose one of two evils, no one will choose the greater when he might have the less. - Plato |
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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WorldDesigner
Joined: 08 Jun 2008
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| If one adopts a relativistic frame view then heck it all depends on how you see it - and choosing between the lesser of evils. Moral choice implies what you think as good will be accepted by all as good, and what you think is evil will be accepted by all as evil, then it influences if you want to design. So if you perceive it to be evil, but your client feels it is good, you then need to act either independent of your feelings, or refuse to do the job. One cannot blankly omit one's moral choice at times, so inevitably it boils down to how you see it. |
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1948
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Moral choice implies what you think as good will be accepted by all as good, |
Not exactly...morals is the good accepted by all. The choices are up to the individual and yes...it's how the individual perceives the choices. More importantly, at some level the client and the architect must share some basic values.
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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WorldDesigner
Joined: 08 Jun 2008
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| mx2 wrote: | | Quote: | | Moral choice implies what you think as good will be accepted by all as good, |
Not exactly...morals is the good accepted by all. The choices are up to the individual and yes...it's how the individual perceives the choices. More importantly, at some level the client and the architect must share some basic values.
mx2.5 |
If morals is the good accepted by all as good, then most, when choosing a project, would certainly be influenced by what the majority feel is "good", so there is no way it will not affect the individual decision in some way, even if the individual decides to act against what is accepted as a good moral choice as accepted by all. This one would be a a sort of a rebel in a sense. So in effect you are saying the same thing I said, only looking at it from another angle. Each person is obviously free to make a choice and nobody can be predicted to make the most obvious generally morally acceptable choice. It is just a generality and general behavior one can look at in attempting to predict how most will behave under given circumstances. |
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Richard Haut
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Joined: 18 Apr 2004
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Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:33 am Post subject: |
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archaeologists consider an ethical problem (from New Scientist):
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Archaeologists to refuse help over possible Iran strike
* 10 July 2008
* NewScientist.com news service
PERSEPOLIS, once the capital of the Persian empire, and the massive mud-brick Bam citadel are among the nine listed World Heritage Sites in Iran. Yet leading archaeologists are urging colleagues to refuse any military requests to draw up a list of Iranian sites that should be exempted from air strikes.
"Such advice would provide cultural credibility and respectability to the military action," said a resolution agreed by the World Archaeological Congress in Dublin, Ireland, last week. Instead, delegates were advised to emphasise the harm that any military action would do to Iran's people and heritage.
During the invasion of Iraq in 2003, bombing damaged important monuments, including the Al-Zohur Palace in Baghdad, and museums and archaeological sites were later looted - even though archaeologists had been consulted in advance. "If these archaeologists had little impact in terms of saving even the few selected archaeological sites listed, what did they achieve?" asks Yannis Hamilakis of the University of Southampton, UK.
From issue 2664 of New Scientist magazine, 10 July 2008, page 6
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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mx2
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1948
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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That is indeed an ethical quagmire Richard...a good one to ponder. Which does begin with the simple question; "which of the two evils does one choose?"...denounce war or identify monuments? I would probably do both, since the latter is ineffective anyway.
| Quote: | | Each person is obviously free to make a choice and nobody can be predicted to make the most obvious generally morally acceptable choice. |
You're either looking to argue for aguments sake or you're deviating from the point...to choose the lesser of two evils is the simplistic explanation of Plato's philosophy. When faced with to bad choices, no one would choose the worse of two evils. However, the idea of what is evil is what you're attempting to debate. I am not. Evil is as what the common people generally accept it to be. Is killing evil? Not to a lion..who has no ethics 9I assume). Is masturbation evil? To many it's a terrible sin. Is lying evil? what about when faced with death?
Ethics is relative however there are some universal truths to humankind that are at the root of this question. Do architects have a ethical standard to uphold that either adheres to or transcends politics?
mx2.5
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*Art of Architecture: The conscious use of skill and creative imagination in the production of an aesthetic building.
*Science of Architecture: The calculated use of technical skill and knowledge in the construction of a functional building. |
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Architorture
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Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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yeah i mean typically the archaeologists like to be the ones doing the looting after all...
just kidding |
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